[jkschue1]

??? Outlook has been owned for 10 months and 13,500 miles. Just past CPO warranty of 12,000 miles and 10 days past my powertrain warranty expiration. *sigh* I took the car today (touchless) to a different car wash than I usually go to (soft brush/less pressure). Wash had very high pressure jets and high pressure undercarriage flush. Car drove fine into wash and while in wash. When wash was finished car was still running fine. As I approached the dryer the car started to sputter. Roughly halfway through the dryer the car started shuddering and missing. It then made a noise as if the starter was spinning but the car had already died. I tried to restart it and it did start, although it only sputtered momentarily and shut itself off, stating reduced engine power. Then it said it was turning TCS off and to service the stabilitrak system. None of these diagnostics from the dash leads to a specific cause. I had the car towed from the gas station car wash to my home. When I got home I hooked up my scan tool and it came back with P0087 (low fuel rail pressure) and P0336 (Crankshaft position sensor). After a few hours at home for "drying time" - now it will just crank and crank and not even attempt to start up. The Tach wasn't moving so I am leaning towards the (CKP) but I am also wondering why it seems to be not running at all now versus running a little but very rough when the issue first started? If it was something that was wet (electrical/sensor) shouldn't in theory get better with time (or at least not worse)? Is this some strange coincidence or did the CKP get wet and therefore destroyed in the car wash. If that is the case, do I bring that up to the car wash manager? Anyone have any troubleshooting suggestions? :mope:

 

[GM Customer Service]

Hi jkschue1,

I am sorry to hear this! I would recommend going to the dealership first to have a service adviser diagnose the issue. If you would like me to schedule an appointment for you and assist through the diagnostic process, I would be happy to do so!

Jessica
GM Customer Care

 

[jkschue1]

Thank you Jessica. I should clarify that this vehicle is used and that the 13,500 miles that I have owned it for have brought it to 75K total. My certified preowned warranty would still be in effect time-wise, but mileage-wise it expired at 73,600 miles. Is there anyway that this situation could still be covered under warranty. I think there is still a chance that after it sits for a long enough time and continues to dry out that it may start working fine again.

If it is possible that this may be a covered situation then I would be interested in going to the dealer. Please let me know. Thanks.

 

[GM Customer Service]

Hello!

Thank you for letting me know. Because the vehicle is out of warranty, I cannot guarantee that there will be cost assistance provided. First, we have the vehicle diagnosed at the dealership, and then research is done further to see what can be provided once we know what the issue with the vehicle is. Let me know what you decide! You are welcome to wait and see how things go. If you would like to proceed with an appointment, you may private message me with your name, address, phone number, VIN, name of preferred dealership, and a convenient appointment time for you. Thank you!

Jessica
GM Customer Care

Thank you Jessica. I should clarify that this vehicle is used and that the 13,500 miles that I have owned it for have brought it to 75K total. My certified preowned warranty would still be in effect time-wise, but mileage-wise it expired at 73,600 miles. Is there anyway that this situation could still be covered under warranty. I think there is still a chance that after it sits for a long enough time and continues to dry out that it may start working fine again.

If it is possible that this may be a covered situation then I would be interested in going to the dealer. Please let me know. Thanks.

 

[jkschue1]

So - here is the answer to my issue. Luckily, the poor engineering behind the placement of the FSCM and the lack of properly sealing against the elements from the factory, was saved by the proper engineering of the 25A fuse that is in the FSCM circuit. Replaced that fuse and things seem to be OK. Could very easily have been the $200 module. I am glad this happened at a car wash in town and I found out about the bad seal then. Could have been during a storm at night on a country road somewhere driving through a puddle. The placement of this module is odd - not really sure why a poorly sealed plastic/metal box with a circuit board is mounted without shielding on the underside of the vehicle behind the fuel tank. If this module goes, it can throw a ton of different DTCs and instantly kill the engine. If you have stalling, hesitation, timing off, misfires, and/or crank but no start I would look to this module or the fuse for it as a possible cause. Best test is to pop air hose off of the air filter box and spray a little starter fluid in there. If it attempts to start, then look to this module/fuse first.

Here is a repair shop update report from GMTechLink:

This information applies to 2009 vehicles equipped with a gasoline engine and Fuel Pump Control Module (FPCM).

On rare occasions, a customer may experience one or all of the following concerns:

1. Intermittent crank no start condition

2. Extended crank

3. Vehicle stall condition

4. One or all of the following codes:

- P069E, P0230 or U0109 set in the PCM

- P0606 set in the Fuel Pump Control Module (FPCM)

These symptoms may be the result of water intrusion ino the Fuel Pump Flow Control Module due to a disruption in the case seal.

Check the Fuel Pump Control Module (FPCM) for fuel control-specific DTCs (if communication is possible) before inspecting connections. Then refer to SI for those fuel control DTCs. If module replacement is required, replace the FPCM by following the Fuel Pump Flow Control Module replacement procedure in SI and using the special procedure below. Also clean or repair the related connector if necessary.

Before installing the new module, please follow instructions below to prevent the vehicle from returning.

1. Clean the backside surface by wiping or brushing to remove all dirt, grease, water, etc. Surface must be clean and dry.

2. Use GM approved RTV sealant p/n 12378521. (Canada p/n: 88901148).

3. Apply sealant to the joint between the aluminum back plate and the plastic housing.

4. Insure that the sealant fills the gap in the joint. Work the sealant into the joint using an index finger. Leave at least a 4mm wide bead on the surface.

TIP: Review the RTV manufacturer's MSDS before use. Wear chemical resistant gloves. Avoid contact of RTV with eyes, skin and clothing. Avoid breathing vapor and mist. Wash thoroughly after handling. Do not wear contact lenses.

5. Allow the sealant to cure at room temperature until it is firm and rubber like. This will usually take a full 24 hours to cure.

6. Install FSCM on vehicle.

 

[ls973800]

Good catch! How did you finally figure out that was the problem. Did you research it or was it a repair shop?

First I have heard or read about this problem, and that is after 3 years on the four different forums and checking them almost every day!

 

[jkschue1]

I ended up researching this on my own. Luckily, my ODBII reader picked up U0109 the second day in addition to the crankshaft sensor. U0109 is the code for lost communication with the FPCM. There isn't a whole lot of internet information with regard to where the module is located. I ended up calling the dealership parts department and had them tell me the location. The module comes sealed with RTV from the factory where the plastic cover goes over the module and meets the metal base. This seal breaks down from the beating it takes based on the location it is in. Oddly enough, other vehicles from other manufacturers have this issue as well. If you youtube F150 FPCM issues you'll see that they have their module mounted in an even worse location. Theirs is a cast aluminum body, plastic top, with the cast aluminum bolted directly to the steel frame. Two differing metal types bolted together and exposed to the elements (including road salt in many areas). I am surprised their new modules don't come with Zinc/Magnesium anodes attached to them. I guess I would be interested in hearing from GM on why they chose the location they did for this module without putting in additional shielding from the elements. The battery is sealed in the passenger compartment, yet this module is exposed. I'm not an engineer, and I know they have to pack a lot of hardware into a relatively small space, so I don't envy their jobs. Most of the time I think they just get the new vehicle design with a note that says "OK, make all of this stuff fit." Anyway, I am OK with it being a blown fuse - placed in a group with all of the trailer fuses which is why I didn't check it when I checked the other control module fuses the first time around. If it were a replacement of the module itself, I would be probably be even grumpier. The only cost for me with this specific problem was my time, which is cheaper than the dealer's. :thumb:

 

[ls973800]

Great work on your part and glad to see you were able to figure it out! I don't know if you have seen this, but it might come in handy if you do your own work on the Outlook. It's a free download of the service manual for 2008-2010 models. Was posted over on the Enclave board and found to be legit.

http://www.enclaveforum.net/index.php?topic=11900.0

 

[jkschue1]

I appreciate the link. I have Chilton database access through my library, but having this manual will be excellent. Thanks! :cheers:

 

[09Enclave]

Interesting stuff. Can you tell us where this 25A fuse is located? You say by the other trailer fuses....where is this? I have used automatic car washes with our Enclave and never had this issue, but sounds like "over time" it could be a problem if enough water gets in there. I'm with you....why have this anywhere near the elements? Don't get it at all.

I know many people would say not to use automatic car washes, but here in MI....I have no choice in the winter months, and during the summer...I tend to use them (well "it" I only use one locally) that does a good job, but not too high of pressure.

Glad you found the solution, this is valuable information to the Lambda forums! :thumb:

 

[jkschue1]

Unfortunately the FSCM fuse has blown two more times in the last two weeks. The Outlook dies completely when this happens. Power is lost and engine will crank but not start again until that 25 amp fuse has been replaced. I am still a firm believer that it is more than a coincidence that this issue took place in a car wash when nothing remotely similar has occurred prior to that. At this point, I guess I am concerned that either the module has gone bad, or there is a short in the FSCM wire somewhere between the fuse and the module. The DTCs thrown have been misfire DTCs and quite frequently P0887 - fuel rail pressure too low. The fuse never blows immediately, only after driving for a while. I believe, for the most part, that this would rule out a bad low pressure fuel pump (in the tank). I think that would be more likely to blow the FSCM fuse immediately after ignition if it was bad. I have read that the FSCM wiring runs up near the firewall inside the passenger compartment as it makes its way back to the module. There can be damage to this wiring due to passenger foot traffic. Not sure if that is true, but I will be pulling back the carpeting on that side tonight to see if I can tell if there is any wiring damage. In addition, this passenger footwell is where water can come in due to a variety of body leak issues on the Lambda (sunroof drains, etc). However, it hasn't rained here in quite some time, so unless it has to do with a clogged AC condensate drain, then I don't know if that would be the issue. I consider myself to be fairly mechanically inclined, but this one is quickly approaching the need to have a TECH2 scan done on it. Does anyone here have any more suggestions - or a good way to test the viability of the FSCM circuit?

Thanks!